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Jefferson on Welfare

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

– Thomas Jefferson

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  1. yttik
    February 15, 2010 at 22:24

    Yes, absolutely. The problem is, we arent even giving anything to those who would not work, unless you’re referring to bankers, wall street, insurance companies, congressmen?? But I suppose that’s how socialism always works, you promise the people a chicken in every pot but somehow it just never seems to trickle down.

    • February 15, 2010 at 23:15

      Hey, when you rob Peter to pay Paul, you always have Paul’s vote! Of course the government takes it’s cut first and foremost.

  2. geoff
    February 16, 2010 at 23:12

    Zombie, I think this would be a good spot to put in my thought (after tamerlane replied to your comment about slavery) about LR. It seems to me that John has turned tamerlane loose to go after anyone who does not toe the liberal line or agree with his way of thinking. Its to bad I really liked the old discourse on his site. I think that tamerlane would say that Jefferson was wrong. I saw the above quote in action at a rally on Monday when 6000 people were calling for more taxes to pay for more state gov. workers, welfare, and entitlement programs.

    • February 17, 2010 at 00:19

      I agree, I really liked the differing voices that used to comment and post on LR like xax, roberta, yttik, run_dmc and jeanie. The guest posts were the bright post in my opinion, not that I don’t like John’s writing. Now the only guest posts are from TL. I see it as a bunker mentality due to Obama tainting the “liberal” brand as evidence by the recent comments that Obama HAS to be a republican. Then the nerve to talk about others revising history!
      I still go and read but as I said on that post, opposing views are no longer welcome. Of course that won’t stop me from ruffling some feathers every now and then. Of course TL would probably call TJ a blathering idiot, as we know TL is always right about everything. He’ll tell you himself.

      I like this link about entitlements. We might be heading here soon. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250993/Single-mum-finds-mansion-net-gets-YOU-pay-7-000-month-rent.html

  3. PJ
    February 17, 2010 at 00:04

    I read that thread too, geoff. I think you may be right. I’ve noticed that Baby Daddy is also getting into the name calling and shouting down.

    I’m glad you’re still commenting over there ZH (at least once in a while). And I appreciate that you don’t stoop to that level. For me, that’s a level reserved for obots. It’s what you do when you don’t have a good argument or, even if you do have a good argument, you have “dogshit debating skills” (to quote TL). Maybe he has been looking in the mirror afterall.

    • February 17, 2010 at 00:38

      As I said on a different post, TL’s lack of tact and name calling have done wonders to turn people away from his line of reasoning. You hit the nail on the head, it’s an obot tactic. Did that work during the election?

  4. Woodhull
    February 17, 2010 at 06:08

    I read the comment stream, too, ZH. TL (and others) are wrong on both the church/state and slavery facts. But when does TL let facts (“facts are stubborn things” – J. Adams) get in the way of his being right? He blathers on about revisionists and conservatives and RW nuts, but another fact of the matter is that so-called Liberals are and have been the biggest progenitors of revisionist history — giving credit to a lot of American history to often inconsequential events and groups. Anecdotally, we’ve had to steep our child in the truth of history and its most basic facts in response to what her over-the-top progressive teachers have been feeding her in middle school. To hear them tell it, some no-name, minor people (so long as they are either “of color” or, less frequently, women) were directly responsible for, oh, say, the Louisiana Purchase, The Voyage of Discovery, and the first moon landing. We are quite willing to give credit where it is due (as in historically factual citation), but to skew actual facts to fit a cherished fantasy is deceitful and politically motivated. I would just love to hear TL’s rendition of the discovery of the double helix sometime.

    For a while I continued to sneak back to LR to read Jsom’s posts, but I don’t even do that anymore. The only reason I read this most recent one is because Geoff was incredulous over the language being used in TL’s assaults. And who wound AnonoMouse’s spring? It’s all pretty disgusting. I’m disappointed in Jsom for letting TL run his blog (into the ground). TL’s debate “skills” consist of flat out ad hominem, straw man and general obot-style thuggery. He should be so proud.

  5. Woodhull
    February 17, 2010 at 06:19

    Oh, and on the JT quote: I am now thoroughly convinced that most so-called Liberals/Progressives are the most selfish, self-interested, navel-gazing group of people in the universe. They can’t think beyond the end of their own perfectly turned-up noses. And when they are confronted by grown-ups’ (those who are actually thinking about a generation or three down the road) entreaties for rational, dispassionate discourse, they slap their hands over their ears, turn up the music and lock their hands into militant, reactionary fists. In their world there is only one right way to think — their way. Oh, and don’t forget the cow bells. Cow bells are an integral part of their protest strategy to drown out the opposing view. TL is one big, clanging cow bell.

    • February 17, 2010 at 07:26

      I agree with you to a certain extent. I think most of it stems from a lack of any economic education, in that most of them don’t see beyond good intentions. Take Welfare, most lib/prog only see that people need some help. That is all well and good but they assume that the only one to provide it is government. Not only that but they don’t see how a welfare system run amok (which I think we have) will lead to dependency. That dependency will destroy the will to work and succeed and foster a sense of entitlement and hopelessness. When faced with these unintended consequences, they summarily dismiss them as “right-wing” talking points. Well it’s not talking points, they are well documented facts with multiple papers showing the effects. Yet when they contradict the good intentions, which do you think get thrown out?
      Compound that with a lack of logical reasoning and you get trouble.

      • February 17, 2010 at 07:30

        That probably makes no sense, sorry just got done with a 13 hour shift and I’m not that coherent right now.

  6. kenoshamarge
    February 17, 2010 at 08:22

    It made sense to me. I have given up on discussing “welfare” with any liberal friends or family. To them anyone that doesn’t believe in welfare the same way that they do is someone that doesn’t want to help other people. They cannot seem to see any nuance. It’s either/or.

    I believe that when welfare “help” leads to dependancy you have done more harm than good. You have also locked those “dependents” into the bottom of society.

    I believe in short term “helping hands” for those that have their backs up against the wall through no fault of their own. If that makes me some evil Conservative Republican in the eyes of some, I can live quite nicely without their good opinion.

    I do not, will not, and never have believed that the government or anyone else has a right to force me to make charitable contributions. I give what I can and always have and always will. But when give is forced into take it’s just simply wrong.

  7. Woodhull
    February 17, 2010 at 10:13

    “in that most of them don’t see beyond good intentions. Take Welfare,”

    Something occurred to me when I read these lines together. First, so-called Liberals (“SCL”)must view themselves to be in a position of either being, themselves, in a “need” or entitlement position or view themselves in the position of champion or “gifter” to the poor. I attended an anti-tax increase rally on Monday (our state gov’t grew 35% in the past 5 years, alone) and the main theme was “tax the rich, give it to the poor” and emotional appeals like “Don’t Cut Kids” (as in don’t cut education). Funny thing is, our state legislature cannot cut hands-off money for things like education, but it doesn’t prevent SEIU and the other 101 (literally, 101) other unions who also rallied from making that emotional appeal. In the case of champion or Robin Hood to the poor, SCL’s “good intentions” never seem to miss also taking care of their own. Here are people who are very gainfully employed with outstanding benefits who are angry they didn’t get their 10% raises and more vacation time — during a severe economic downturn. That is selfish. But that is what we are seeing from our government employees in WA state. They don’t care if they kill the goose that lays the golden eggs or if the entire state goes bankrupt (which it may well under what they are proposing in our legislature), as long as they “get theirs.” I claimed that if there is a state worker who is so unhappy about their situation, I’d be glad to replace them for at least a 25% cut in pay and to heck with the vacation, as a private contractor I haven’t had a decent vacation in 5 years.

    It’s a stretch, but consider what wanting to have “good intentions” is about. Is it an atheistic substitute for playing God-like Santa Claus? Is this why they are so rankled about the idea of God? They don’t like the competition?

    • February 18, 2010 at 22:03

      They are using appeals to emotion. Appeals to emotion are flawed, they don’t work and often cut both ways. They also do not think beyond stage one. Of course they don’t think you know what’s best for you. You need to be guided to make the right decision. Which also means they have no concept of subjective value. The more you study fallacies, debate and logical thinking, the more you realize they are lacking in all three.

  8. yttik
    February 17, 2010 at 10:41

    I really learned a lot about the problems with liberal philosophy around helping people when I did social work. It’s really not easy to help people, I mean the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But one thing liberals do is give people an extra 8 bucks in food stamps while also making it impossible for them to work or start a business. We’ll put you in low income housing, but if you try to start an in home daycare and support yourself, you’re out. We’ll give you medical care, but if you get a raise, you’ll lose it. Attached to every single good act are strings, ropes actually, that keep people trapped in poverty. The more trapped you are, the more dependent you are. Naturally you start voting for the guys who “gave” you the extra 8 bucks.

    Unemployment extensions are another example. Obama swept into office promising to “help” the jobless, so he extended unemployment benefits. Well that’s not free money, it comes from employers. Our state just keeps raising the rates and billing employers, so now people can’t afford to hire anyone. We’d like to hire some more people, provide actual jobs, but now we can’t because we’re stuck paying for all this alleged “help.” What was the problem in the first place? A lack of jobs. Instead of doing things to provide job creation, we went and “helped” people with six months of benefits, probably leaving them worse off when their benefits end.

    Instead of spending billions on stimulus schemes, they could have simply created a tax holiday, forgone some short term government revenue, and made is possible for small businesses to hire. Ironically, the more people with jobs, the more tax revenue you will eventually collect. Lo and behold, nobody has jobs and the government is going broke.

    • February 18, 2010 at 22:01

      Just remember that they think your dumb and that you don’t know what is best for you, they do. That helps explain a lot of what they do and how they think. Read Conflict of Visions for more…so much more.

      BTW did you see TL’s response to me? Am I the only one that thinks it’s really lame?

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